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@bdach bdach commented Jul 15, 2025

In osu!stable's osu!mania implementation, "Hard Rock" and "Easy" mods do not work the same way as they do on all other rulesets. Rather than applying a multiplier to the map's base Overall Difficulty value, it applies multipliers to the durations of hit windows themselves.

Applying a multiplier to the map's OD instead of the hit windows is not the same thing. The second thing is actually much harsher in magnitude, to the point where applying HR to any map is almost guaranteed to exceed "the effective OD" of 10, and applying EZ to any map is almost guaranteed to result in "negative effective OD".

Prior to the last release, osu!lazer was oblivious to this reality and just treated mania HR / EZ as it did every other ruleset. Last release, for the sake for gameplay parity across rulesets, the mods in question were adjusted to match stable, but in the process, it made it look on the surface like HR / EZ were not changing OD anymore.

In actuality, the hit windows were still being adjusted (now matching stable), but this was no longer visible in the OD displayed at song select.

This change attempts to convey that reality by displaying "effective OD", similar to what's already done in other rulesets when rate-changing mods are active. Note that the values this will display do not match stable and that is correct, because stable song select lies about the actual impact on OD by just assuming it can treat all rulesets in the same way.


Would close #34150 I guess.

And yes I would like all of the above to land on the changelog if possible if this is merged.

For further convincing that this makes any semblance of sense please see the following: https://www.desmos.com/calculator/yigt7jycdv

Citation for stable just lying about the OD. Also note that stable just lies about DT/HT affecting OD on mania as well although it doesn't quantify by how much because it only shows a down/up triangle.

@bdach bdach self-assigned this Jul 15, 2025
@bdach bdach added area:song-select type/cosmetic Only affects the game visually. Doesn't affect things working or not working. area:difficulty labels Jul 15, 2025
… application on overall difficulty

In stable mania, Hard Rock and Easy mods do not work the same way as
they do on all of the rulesets. The difference is that mania HR and EZ,
rather than apply a multiplier to the map's original Overall Difficulty,
apply multipliers to *the durations of hit windows themselves*.

Prior to the last release, lazer was oblivious to this reality and just
treated mania HR / EZ as it did every other ruleset. Last release, for
the sake for gameplay parity across rulesets, the mods in question were
adjusted to match stable, but in the process, it started looking like HR
/ EZ did not change OD anymore.

The problem is that they do, but applying a multiplier to the map's OD
and applying a multiplier to the hit window duration is not the same
thing. The second thing is actually *much harsher* in magnitude, to the
point where applying HR to any map is almost guaranteed to exceed "the
effective OD" of 10, and applying EZ to any map is almost guaranteed to
result in "negative effective OD".

This change attempts to convey that reality by displaying "effective
OD", similar to what's already done in other rulesets when rate-changing
mods are active. Note that the values this will display *do not match*
stable *and that is correct*, because stable song select *lies* about
the actual impact on OD by just assuming it can treat all rulesets in
the same way.

---

Would close ppy#34150 I guess.

And yes I would like *all of the above* to land on the changelog if
possible if this is merged.

For further convincing that this makes any semblance of sense please see
the following: https://www.desmos.com/calculator/yigt7jycdv
@bdach bdach force-pushed the display-weird-numbers-for-mania-so-that-people-stop-complaining branch from 83e5956 to 131f828 Compare July 15, 2025 07:40
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peppy commented Jul 16, 2025

Here's an attempted reword of the public message attached to this change which I think reads a bit better for end users:

In osu!stable's osu!mania implementation, "Hard Rock" and "Easy" mods do not work the same way as they do on all other rulesets. Rather than applying a multiplier to the map's base Overall Difficulty value, it applies multipliers to *the durations of hit windows themselves*.

Applying a multiplier to the map's OD instead of the hit windows is not the same thing. The second thing is actually *much harsher* in magnitude, to the point where applying HR to any map is almost guaranteed to exceed "the effective OD" of 10, and applying EZ to any map is almost guaranteed to result in "negative effective OD".

Prior to the last release, osu!lazer was oblivious to this reality and just treated mania HR / EZ as it did every other ruleset. Last release, for the sake for gameplay parity across rulesets, the mods in question were [adjusted to match stable](https://github.com/ppy/osu/pull/33982), but in the process, it made it look on the surface like HR / EZ were not changing OD anymore.

In actuality, the hit windows *were* still being adjusted (now matching stable), but this was no longer visible in the OD displayed at song select. 

This change attempts to convey that reality by displaying "effective OD", similar to what's already done in other rulesets when rate-changing mods are active. Note that the values this will display *do not match* stable *and that is correct*, because stable song select *lies* about the actual impact on OD by just assuming it can treat all rulesets in the same way.

Feel free to diff at your end and apply as you see fit.

@peppy peppy self-requested a review July 16, 2025 05:26
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bdach commented Jul 16, 2025

Have applied.

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seems fine to me

@peppy peppy merged commit d539c4b into ppy:master Jul 16, 2025
7 of 9 checks passed
@bdach bdach deleted the display-weird-numbers-for-mania-so-that-people-stop-complaining branch July 16, 2025 05:40
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Mania HR mod doesn't change OD

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